Cardinal Zen, you know better than anybody else the status of the Church in China. Where is it going?
− It is heading for disaster! It is very sad to say that, actually, we are already facing a disaster and remedial measures should be taken. What worse could happen than having another illegitimate Episcopal ordination like the previous one where some of the ordaining bishops were there by force, while others were there on their own free will? And the one ordained showed no embarrassment… but, instead, happiness to be ordained that way? They assembled in spite of an explicit recommendation not to. I would say that those who were happy to be there are no longer our people. And the impression is that the Holy See is willing to take anything. The last communiqué of the meeting was too soft considering the gravity of what happened.

Some commentators said that the communiqué following the meeting of the special Vatican Commission on the Church in China (April 11-13), which you attended, “gave a chance to dialogue”…
− What chance? Dialogue with whom – the bishops and priests or with the government? What dialogue? So far, the Holy See has made too many concessions. They imposed another illegitimate ordination after a very severe pronouncement against it and then there was the Assembly… It is like slapping the face of the Holy Father! We have to tell those bishops: “You are bringing our Church to a schism. You have to declare who you are – Catholics or non-Catholics. You are free not to be Catholics; it’s your choice. But you are doing something extremely serious.” How can we call it an independent Church? An independent Church is a schismatic Church. We have a very sick Church – a Church that is more on the side of the government than on the side of the Holy See.

The communiqué was too mild! The only good thing in it is that it quotes Pope Benedict XVI’s “Letter to Chinese Catholics” several times. It was written almost four years ago, but it has not been respected. People in China are asking: “What is the Holy See doing to put that letter into practice? Do they show any respect for that letter? Are they taking that letter seriously?”

Priests, in general, and seminarians are courageous enough. But some bishops and some priests are “opportunists,” in the words of Archbishop Savio Hon Tai-Fai (the new Secretary of the Congregation for the Evangelization of the Peoples – Ed.). He is very careful when he speaks, but he used the exact words: “opportunists” – they are on the side of the government. And the Holy Father uses another word to define them: “careerists.” There are too many bishops who became so because of the government. The government wanted them to be bishops and the Holy See just accepted them. So, their loyalty is to the government and not to the Holy See. And people believe that bishops who do not have papal approval are going to be legitimized, sooner or later. So, those courageous, faithful ones in the underground Church consider themselves stupid and ask: “What are we fighting for? We want to save the Church but the Holy See is selling the Church.”

You have decried recently the policy of “Ostpolitik” (to always please the government) which you associate with the Vatican’s Congregation for the Evangelization of the Peoples, suggesting that it has led to “slavish subjection” to the state. Can you explain what you mean by it and who is behind this?
− I have been very frank. Some people criticize me for this. But I tried to be very careful because it is scandalous for people to know that there are different voices in the Holy See and that there are people who are not following the Holy Father’s instructions. It is very serious to say such things but, at the end, I thought I had to say them because, otherwise, people may believe that everything that comes from the Holy See comes from the Holy Father, which is not true at all. I didn’t want people to blame the Holy Father for all the mistakes made by the Congregation for the Evangelization of the Peoples (referred to also by its old name, Propaganda Fide – Ed.).

This means that the Congregation diverges from what the Secretary of State does. Is the Holy See in two minds or just speaks with two voices?
− I know the contents of the letter of the Holy Father; I know what Propaganda Fide has done. So, I would say: Propaganda Fide is not following the directions of the Holy Father.

THE POWERFUL CHAIRMAN
Are the November 2010 ordination in Chengde of Joseph Guo Jincai and the Eighth National Assembly of Catholic Representatives held in December signs that the Chinese Government is increasing its control over the Church?
− In the Commission, we discussed about the Assembly for more than two years and bishops were recommended not to participate. I sustained that it would be completely unacceptable as it became clear afterwards. Everything was manipulated by Liu Bainian (the honorary chairman of the state-affiliated Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association and the so-called Bishops Conference of the Catholic Church of China – Ed.). The bishops sat there, just like the priests and the Sisters… They had no special right in that meeting. The priests were elected. How? You know, in China, elections are all manipulated. They were sent by the Patriotic Association to elect its head and the head of the Bishops’ Conference, which are government-controlled bodies. The Bishops’ Conference does not exist. The letter of the Holy Father says: “We do not recognize the Bishops’ Conference…” But the reality is worse: there’s no such Bishops’ Conference. Bishops never meet by themselves. The meetings are always with the Patriotic Association under Liu Bainian. It’s all a farce. The only aim of such a meeting was to reaffirm the independent Church.

But have there been some precedents?
− In 2008, they celebrated the 50th anniversary of the first illegitimate ordination. Someone asked Propaganda Fide: “May we go to that celebration?” The answer was: “Do your best not to go.” That means: under pressure, you may go. How can you go to celebrate the 50th anniversary of an illegitimate ordination? Incredible! This time we insisted: “Do not tell them ‘do your best!’ Tell them: ‘don’t go!’” Actually they postponed the meeting twice. But, at the end, a bishop came to see Cardinal Ivan Dias (the prefect of the Congration − Ed.). “We talked for one hour,” Cardinal Dias said, “and he told me that it would be difficult not to go.” “What did you answer,” I asked. “I understand your difficulty.” I retorted: “It is not even important what you meant, but what they understood. And they understood that, under pressure, they may go. In that way, you have distorted everything we have agreed upon during these two years. That bishop goes back and says: “Cardinal Dias understands… we may go.”

All these years, Cardinal Dias has been listening to Fr. Jeroom Heyndrickx, who says: “There’s no reason for people to be underground; everybody should come into the open. The Holy Father wants reconciliation.” I say: reconciliation, yes; but not to come into the open. The Holy Father writes that it is very dangerous to make that decision, because the government puts conditions that are unacceptable. But, he has never been contradicted; Cardinal Dias and Fr. Heyndrikx have been in command.

How influential is this Scheut missionary, Fr. Jeroom Heyndrickx, in China?
− He is a good friend of Liu Bainian. Fr. Heyndrickx is an expert and did many good things. We were friends. We were encouraging him. He was organizing courses for bishops, but Liu Bainian would veto names again and again. Bishops are afraid of him.
In the Commission, we spent one and a half days discussing Liu Bainian. At the end, I said: “We have spent so much time… Shall we have a motion?” They asked me to make the motion. I said: “Collaboration with Mr. Liu Bainian in projects, otherwise very good, has produced very bad effects. While Liu Bainian has gained prestige, the bishops have become slaves.”
The motion’s vote was 12 against one. That one came from Fr. Heyndrickx. Officials of the Holy See abstained. For us, that was tantamount to arrogance! After discussing for one and a half days, couldn’t they still make up their minds? Abstention was an insult to us. By their act, they were saying: we are in command and Fr. Heyndrickx is the link.

There were, however, other sad episodes…
− A terrible one happened recently. After the ordination in Chengde, the Holy See made a strong statement. After a few days, someone told me to look at the site of Agenzia Fides run by Propaganda Fide, for a letter written in Chinese. It stated that the ordination was unfortunate, but there were people sitting comfortably on their armchairs criticizing the bishops and saying they deserved punishment instead of thanking them because they had been very courageous: they said pointedly that they didn’t want to go to that ordination… But, they went, anyway. Some may have been forced – that makes them victims not heroes! The letter went on criticizing the Holy See. How could the website of Propaganda Fide criticize the Holy See? I sent immediately a message to the Holy Father and Cardinal Dias informing them about the letter. The following day, I sent an Italian translation. Then, it disappeared from the site. I came to know what happened the last time I went to Rome. After my fax, the Secretary of State ordered the letter to be removed. Cardinal Dias, on the following day, asked: “Who took it away?” “The Secretary of State,” they told him. “He has no power,” he retorted. “Put it back!” And they did. Then, the Holy Father, who had received my translation, ordered it should be taken away. It needed the authority of the Holy Father to remove it! Incredible! The Holy See fighting the Holy See! On the occasion, I wrote to the Secretary of State, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, saying: “Any government employee who does such a thing would be fired immediately.” Fortunately, the letter stayed online only two or three days and not many people noticed that. It was scandalous!

UNDER THE TABLE NEGOTIATION
These are surprising stories!
− In February, at the time of the ordination of Archbishop Savio, there was a meeting. We were very anxious. After the ordination in Chengde in November, after the Assembly at the beginning of December, the Holy See took a strong position, but no action has been taken. How could that be? Cardinal Dias was with the Holy Father and came in late, just before lunch. They asked him: “Eminence, do you have anything to tell us?” “Yes,” he said. “This meeting is useless. We have just one question: Why Beijing does such things? They do so because we have changed the cards on the table.” Then, he explained that our statement had been too strong and that angered them. After lunch, I contested him saying: “Our position was made clear two years ago. It is not the statement that made the government angry. We didn’t change anything.” Then, he started arguing with the Secretary of State accusing him of changing the cards on the table of negotiations. We didn’t know what had happened. The Secretary of State was very conscious not to enter into the discussion.

Now, there was this three-day meeting in April. Someone had told me not to quarrel with Cardinal Dias because he was going to retire, and we should let him go in peace. But he criticized the Secretary of State for not sending a certain negotiator – a sign of naivety because it is the Holy Father who decides whom to send. He went on saying that they had agreed on things in indirect dialogue which were not done. I replied: “What do you mean by indirect talk? It was an illicit talk, irregular talk, under the table negotiation…” I added: “In those negotiations you planned something very evil. The government would free two bishops, then, you would ask them immediately to resign.” Nobody contested me. Then, he accused the Secretary of State of putting more conditions to free bishops from prison. I intervened again: “You do not even want to ask them to free the bishops? That should be even before any negotiation.” Seemingly, they are proposing to legitimize some bishops just to please the government, without requesting anything from them – not even a letter of repentance. How can that be? I said: “First of all, there’s a distinction between excommunication and legitimization. You can absolve excommunication, but those bishops should never be recognized as bishops.” Now, upon repentance, they want to legitimize them, just to appease the government, just to avoid illegitimate ordinations.

Your line of intervention was to respect principles like truth, repentance, responsibility…
− We have to care for the Church. They are corrupting it. The government pays and all those bishops obey the government. They know that the Holy See is forgiving everything and sooner or later, it will recognize everybody. The priests and the faithful cannot accept that. I hope that, with the change of personnel in Propaganda Fide, things will be better. This is transition time. Maybe, many things should not be said anymore. If Cardinal Dias retires and a good prefect is installed, the first thing to do is to fire a certain negotiator and then Fr. Heyndrickx should no longer represent the Holy See. He should have no more power. Let him be friend to Liu Bainian as much as he likes but not talk to him in the name of the Holy See.

THEY PUT EVERYBODY IN PRISON
Do you think the Church has committed great mistakes?
− Yes.

Is China tightening its grip on the Church?
− It is happening also, partly because of the Holy See’s wrong strategy.

Besides trying to control the Church, is the government tightening its grip over other religious expressions?
− Yes, that is clear. They put everybody in prison – human rights lawyers, artists… It’s a paranoia!

The U.S. Department of State’s annual report on human rights’ conditions around the world, for the year 2010, states: “Since February, dozens of people, including public interest lawyers, writers, artists, intellectuals, and activists have been arbitrarily detained and arrested” and “a negative trend in key areas of [China’s] human rights record continued.” Is China becoming tougher on dissent?
− Recent news said that they have arrested and beaten a priest inside the prison.

What was the effect of the Arab uprising on China? Do Chinese know about it?
− I think many know because of the internet, even though many sites are blocked. But Chinese people are very peaceful. It is difficult to have a general revolution.

It seems the Chinese government is deliberately sponsoring a revival of Confucianism and other ancient Chinese ethical philosophies. Is it so?
− Yes, in fact, they put a Confucius statue on Tiananmen Square but then they took it away. I don’t know what happened. They have established Confucianism everywhere – just like Alliance Française or the British Council. They have the Confucianism Institute. The aim is to have a power base and to promote Chinese culture and a positive image of China. But they also give a bad image of the country through their embassies and consulates. They interfere in the life of the Chinese people in other nations by commanding them, as it happened during the passage of the Olympic torch. In many nations where there were protests, they called on their youth to mobilize and do anti-protests, like in New York. I think that is illicit. I went to Vienna, Austria, for a silent march for religious freedom – a very quiet and short march. Only a few Chinese turned out. I asked: “What happened to the Chinese?” They answered: “Many people do not dare to come.”

But the Falun Gong people did come. The others were afraid. The following day, the priest who takes care of the Chinese community arranged a meeting with me. Only 12 people appeared. They said it was because they know their moves were being watched.

China is afraid of instability, isn’t it?
− They themselves are creating instability.

Is social stability above the rule of law?
− Stability for them means control.

THEY ARE HEADING FOR DISASTER
China is on its way to leading the world’s economy and it doesn’t seem to be concerned with its external image. How can reforms come about?
− They are heading for disaster. Their behavor is so abnormal that it cannot go on for much longer. They cannot have economic reforms without political reforms. Otherwise, corruption goes on and on. There’s no control. The provinces are becoming more and more independent. It is very dangerous.

What are the major needs of the Church in China?
− To have normalcy, to be run as a Catholic Church. Now, the underground Catholics feel frustrated. All these years, Propaganda Fide has regarded them as inconvenient, traitors, ignorant, fanatics. We need to tell the leaders: we want a Catholic Church! It cannot bear the name of Catholic Church and be run independently. You may have an independent Church, but do not call it Catholic. Catholic people want to have a Catholic Church. We know there are also problems in the underground Church. But they have suffered so much!… Why are they treated like that? They are not given new bishops while bishops of the open Church, even the illegitimately ordained, are easily legitimized. Why? Not to provoke the government, for sure. They are provoking us. They have stopped the dialogue. Then let us do our own thing. If they ordain illegitimate bishops, we should tell them that we are never going to recognize them. We have to save our Church. The way Propaganda Fide has been doing is very wrong.

Is this your main cross?
− Yes. Now, as soon as the Holy Father appoints a new, good prefect of Propaganda Fide, I can retire and go to a monastery to pray for the rest of my life. I am very tired of fighting, very tired. Speaking against Propaganda Fide, I am scandalizing some good people. They say: how can he criticize the Holy See? The Holy See is the Holy Father! I am doing this precisely to free the Holy Father from the responsibility of all the wrong things that have been done. People should understand that the mistakes came from Propaganda Fide because they don’t obey the Holy Father.

Unfortunately, the Secretary of State, for a long time, was aligned with Propaganda Fide. Not anymore. Enough of those mistakes! Enough of ruining our Church!